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Soros 06-04-2003 10:51 PM

"... man has dominated man to his injury"—Ecclesiastes 8:9.

As an example the leaders while JC was here was a bunch of greedy jerks as far as I'm concerned: "because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things"—Matthew 23:23.

And as we can understand, "God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace."—1 Corinthians 14:33.

So the creator of all standards and moral standards obviously know very well what justice means.

“Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness."—Genesis 1:26.

"Then that slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes. But the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him."—Luke 12:47-48.

"As regards the resurrection of the dead, did you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32*‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.”—Matthew 22:31-33.

Thigo 06-07-2003 05:34 PM

Even if what I will post here (first post ever here, hi guys(/girls?) !) will probably be the same as other did before, i'd like to comment on this.
I do not personnaly believe in any god or any supernatural influences (as Asimov named them) and I want to say that I respect people who have a religion and are fervent in it, as long as they're not fanatic / extremists.

This beeing stated, I can go further. I think that religion was the consequence of an unexpressed need, I mean, in the beginning of history, people had very hard lifes and needed sth in which they could get strenght and comfort. If you consider the texts of the 3 main religions (at least, the occidental / arabic ones, the ones I can talk about since I know almost nothing about other religions), you can see that they all extol (ultralingua rox) the love of your fellow man but, as they became bigger, they needed head to lead them. And as always, when power is in the game, some did bad things with their power and, because the mass following this religion was uneducated, they followed their leaders blindly, thinking they were acting for their own good.

Religion isn't a bad thing, it's needed, or at least, it was needed because it seems that nowadays (in our occidental civilisation) people are more down to earth than before or maybe they find other ways to escape the hard life.

Just my 2 cents,

w00tz` 06-19-2003 10:56 AM

Religion is something that people can pick up on to have in their lives as some type of motivation, even though that the most prostrated argument for no God is the natural human being initiative to believe in a "Big Brother" but that still does not cover the bases of the God existence. Let's look at it this way, in terms of some C code ;-)


 if ( god.Exists() == true && you.Believe() == true )

 * * you win completely, if god exists and you believe in him, expect no punishment of that sort


 * *//now down to the other conditions

 * *if (god.Exists() == false && you.Believe() == true)

 * *//you still win, you didn't die a non-beleiver so u just lay there in your grave


*but* here's teh big issue


 * if( god.Exists() == true && you.Believe() == false)

 * * *you're fucked. its not even funny, all that hell and shit they talk about will be on your ass


 *if( *god.Exist() == false && you.Believe() == false)

 * * you win.,


now taking all the cases and the result that since you have 2 different options you can only have 4 combinations of 2 different / similar choice, mathematically its wiser to believe in God based on consequences.

if you are accepting the first 50 percent of believing in a god you win both ways, however if determined NOT to believe in a god and there is one that exists, you are risking possibly a torment of Hell and Brimstone (and all that lovely gruesome punishment imagination)

so taking my chances, i'd rather believe in some God than believe in none at all, just due to simple arithmetic.


Pinczakko 05-23-2005 01:52 AM

I think that religion is not truly "mind control" or something like that. It's just some or maybe big part of their followers practice things that to other people seems like a "mind control". To my view-point, it's more like a "rules of behaviour" for human, to make their life "as human as possible". Unfortunately lots of the religion's followers just take things for granted, they don't analyze it. Human is a free creature, we can behave as we want it to be, but that doesn't mean we can do anything. There are some things that will destroy ourselves, civilization, etc. if we proceed doing it anyway. I myself hardly accept any religion before it can convince me in all aspects of mylife, most importantly does it makes sense at all? As the most logical approach to this thing, I learned several religions holybooks, to see what they may have inside of it, and I'm not done yet. Anyway, if they are right then they must have something in it to prove it :). Anyway, since most of the holybook stated implicitly or explicitly that it's universally accepted, it must have been using some form of symbolism. Since to me, without it, how can it explains things that happen after it was written. To put simply, my approach to this is "hacking the holybooks". This will show me what exactly within those books. Anyway, just my own opinion ;)

Devine9 06-18-2005 10:23 PM

Does anyone know much about Kaballah? or however you spell it.. I watched a documentary on it last night on television.. I guess 3 people in California have become priests of it and commercialized the shit out of it.. and are ripping off a lot of people, primarily hollywood stars etc.. selling red string to go around the wrist for $25 etc.

I have known others however in the past that have been with this religion and it was similar to the jewish religion.. perhaps a spinoff but focused a little closer to rasta.. who knows, but the documentary basically cut it all up to shit and exposed the priests for ripping off the people.. I wonder how such a documentary would be received if it were focused a a more predominant religion.


anunitu 12-15-2005 07:04 PM

This can be a very charged subject, depending on a persons "Belief", That being somewhat undefined in a solid reality. Talk of "Faith", something believed without any direct physical data to see and examine. That is what keeps religions going, it is "BAD" not to have "faith" in many religions. It seems that if you can't just believe on "Faith", then "GOD" won't recognise you. I am not a religious person, but I wouldn't say I am not spiritual..There is a difference. I can see and feel the effects of nature, and try and understand how the various factors(Animal life,insect life,etc.) co-exist, and effect each other. Also weather effects life here. Though it is a very complex system, it IS a system we can study, and try to understand.

Religion needs "Faith" to continue, while a Spiritual nature requires the ability to alter perceptions if and when one finds an alternate solution to a theory of how nature interacts. The Spiritual nature, adapts, rather that just accepting things, without researching them as in orginised religion. I do understand that a lot of people "need" religion", as a social control, that has been the case from the beginning of religious thought. My main problem with "Religion" is when it becomes political and attains enough power to disrupt and attempt to force people to follow it. I am a rational person, and "faith" is not always rational...I may come back to this subject later...

Anunitu :unsure:

mysticdrew 12-31-2005 12:16 AM

IMHO religion is

1. Control
2. A way to give meaning to our meaningless lives.
3. control
4. Greed of the church to take our money.
5. control
6. Give a reason to why things are the way they are.
7. control.
8. Gives us hope that there is life after death.
9. control

quitsendingmetrash 02-03-2006 05:59 PM

Life is rather bizarre. For instance how curiosity has gathered us. How does that joystick control the character on the screen? How does that tape contain music? How do I get my computer to do what I want it to do. How can I break that protection? How do locks work, and how the hell do I pick one? Did I have to be born? If my parents did not have sex, would I still be forced into this damned world? If there is a God, how did things get so fucked up?! Is time man made or did the Unknown bind us in it? Who came first Adam or the caveman? What is the opposite of time?

How do you discuss religion withOUT all the onesidedness and emotions? Everybody has a different life, different experiences, thoughts, perspectives... Perspective! Maybe that could help out. Let's combine some aspects of Reversing with that of Irrelevantism.

The reverser's mentality does not need much elaboration. It is curious and persistent. Often rebellious and nonLemmingish. A reverser will come across much garbage that others call software. What he does not like he can adapt, what he does like he can consume. It can take a lifetime to become the ultimate reverser. Things are always changing. Regardless, deep down inside he's always had that feeling/calling/curiosity whatever you want to call it.

The irrelevantist, well the word itself says it all. Everything is irrelevant. You believe in God, you don't believe in God, SO WHAT!!! You think this, you think that, AND??? How many people have lived before you and how many more will live after? Where does one measly life get its significance? If one is insignificant then all are. It goes along with these statements: If you have thought of something, then someone else has already thought it. If you think of something, it is already on the net, even if you can't find it. To take irrelevantism to its extreme! If one blew up the entire world (all of creation) and destroyed all mankind it would prove everything is irrelevant. It would not harm anyone, because no one is left. No mourning, no pain, just nothingness. If God existed it would still be irrelevant because the good would be in happiness, the bad in horribleness. It could never change, because you're in your eternal dwelling. If there was no God then guess what, IRRELEVANT!

Man really is an ignorant being. He thinks he knows things. He thinks he can do great wonders. He looks back on the generations of the past and laughs at the beliefs and conclusions of his predecessors!!! Later generations will do the same to his. He builds upon foundations that were laid before him, then claims rights. There was a time when people would not have believed in microOrganisms, invisible light rays, or a round earth. The ignorance of man's past entrusts his ignorance in the future.

My point is that if you want to know about reversing. You can read books or webPages. You can seek guidance from another. You can try a couple crackmes. You could spend many a year dibbling and dabbling. You get out of it what you put in it. If there is a God, I imagine it would take the same dedication to build a relationship.

If someone claims that some code is irreversible does that mean you believe them. Since so many people are using Microsoft that means it is the best. OpenBSD is the most secure operating system. Ruby is the most beautiful of all the programming languages. If you really want to know something, eventually you have to get your hands dirty, get your mind a crank'n, do some examining and determining of your own.

A problem with religion is there is no hard proof that guarantees it in all minds. A faith based system. Many of those that are faithful to one religion will be the first to reject the next one. Even if I become religious, am I still destined to hell for choosing the wrong one? The flip side is that there is no hard proof that guarantees God does not exist. Man can claim that his science has proven God is false. Science is just his interpretation of things once/still unknown. If I was the Ultimate, could I not just snap my fingers and bigBang the universe into existence? Man's vain attempts to disprove God with science may be better off realizing that he is trying to disprove something that religion never had the rights to claim. Is the world square? What's that got to do with religion? When was the last time someone's God divinely intervened and informed the father of their religion that the sun was a box?

God == THE Mathematician ??

Someone brought up the Kaballah. I don't know much about it. Although I once read a book about it. I don't remember the title and it is one of those that I loaned out and haven't received back. I have always been curious about the reason of my existence. Did I have to be and what the hell for. This Kaballah book had three reasons for existence. Only one can I recall. I'll just put it in my own words: Everything is energy. The universe, the stars, the lifeForces, etc. So lets just picture all preLife (human for the time being) as one giant energy ball. Maybe even God is part of this giant energy ball. So everyone is part of the all. There are no individuals because all are a whole. There is no understanding or appreciation of loneliness, love, pain, withdrawal, fear, creativity, separation, existence, etc. because all have always been, and has always been one. When you are born you are plucked from the ball. Now you are an individual, alone, separate. While living your life you realize you look, think, act, and ARE different from all the others around you. You are here to realize who you are. Your actions and experiences here in life evolve you into what you are to become. Now death passes. You go back to the energy ball. So what's the difference? Well now even though you are part of a whole, all one energy ball, you know WHO you are amongst the rest. You have become a unique piece of the whole. You now understand and appreciate love, togetherness, etc.

Another thing that always bothered me with religion is the damnation part. How is this determined. Who exactly is to be damned. After much pondering, and after reading the Kaballah book something dawned on me. Looking at it from a Kaballah'n point of view may shed a little light. Just maybe if we all do go back to a whole, this may not only insist that I am a unique part of everyone, but that we all know what everyone else has EVER thought and done. So if we all know all the details about ourselves and everyone else, what is the need for a judgement day? Or what exactly is a judgement day? If we all know and we all are what we lived, then everyone is simply where they belong. If all you did/thought was good. Everyone would see you as that. If all you did was bad... So whether or not there is a judgement day is a mute point because everyone knows what/who/where you are based on you/the life you lived.

Man is free to choose? That gets to me sometimes. Man is not free to choose shit. I don't know about you but I don't remember choosing to come to this place. Sure once I'm here I can choose to be a jerk or a nice guy. How many choices do we really have. Regardless of how we got here(came to existence), we have to breath, eat, drink, etc. There are some rules that still must be followed. Such as worlds and galaxies orbiting. Many things we have no choice of. I still can not fly.

So who did come first? Adam? or the caveman? Did God create Adam. Adam pissed off God. God kicked Adam out of his paradise and took the majority of his knowledge away. Adam goes out to the land of the caveman. Caveman learns from Adam. Adam's lineage mates with cavePeople's. || Did God create the caveman. The caveman evolved to Adam only to be turned back into a cavemanish being? Ok I'm going to far! Got to think that one out better.

I've met many that believe we were created by aliens. Ok cool. I'll buy that for a dollar. Except wouldn't that be admitting the need of a creator? So, who created the aliens?

Translations? Transliterations? Interpretations? PERSPECTIVE? How many, which ones, and by whom? Hmmm... Let's use the story of the Tower of Babel. From the eyes of a journalist, no this was back in the day so I will call him a documenter. Our documenter stumbles across the desert to find a group of tribes(all speaking the same language) constructing a structure. Wow! what is that? We are building a tower to reach heaven. Can you really do that? We are going to find out! Over the months our documenter records the daily activities. About the time they are reaching the closet they've come to the clouds, various tribes(all speaking different languages) from separate regions within the line of sight of the radius(the tower) start to gather in their own villages. Whoa! What's that? I don't know. Some of us better go check it out. Let's go! In time all kinds of people from all kinds of unknown regions are piling into the district of the tower. Yes all speaking unknown tongues. Of course our religious documenter comes to the conclusion God has been angered and punishes the infidels with the curse of babbling speech. How could they be so wretched, to think they could build to the heavens!

One more before I go Enochian on you!

Wonders/Ponders? Aren't I full of them? So how did things get so weary? If there is an Almighty how did we get so far off track? Another one of my bothersomes. Here is my concoction. Let's compare God to a grandpa. Eventually a great...great grandpa. Grandpa is just a daddy right now cause he only has two sons. One is the ideal son. The other rebellious and hateful. Around the age of manhood the rebellious son takes off across the world to never come in contact with his previous family again. While the other lives off the land his father has given him. The ideal son has children. They grow up and mature with everyday interaction with there grandfather. Picking up on his beliefs/intelligence/wisdom/knowledge/love/etc. The rebel is off somewhere in the unknown. Eventually has kids of his own. These children grow up under the wing of their demented chipOnHisShoulder father. Whether he is all that bad or not is almost irrelevant. The point is: the one set of children will grow up without the interaction of their grandfather. They have never even been told anything about him. They never had the opportunity to come in contact with such a righteous mentor. Now imagine what happens through the generations... I will not drag on about how bad the one son's lineage can become. Just want to point at how far they would be from the grandpa. Generations down the line never having the knowledge that they could have had. Is it the children's fault? Is it the grandpa's fault? Is there even a fault? Is it just the way things have become?

The book of Enoch? Anyone down for more?
I'm ready to quit, I did promise so here goes: This is a quite recent light bulb that went bling bling in my head. I'm far fetching here so enjoy. Back in the time when the fallen angels came to earth and bore children with the daughters of man. They showed them the knowledge of the metals of earth, the art of crafting weapons such as swords, knives, shields, etc. Revealing enchantments, makeup, astrology, weather, rootCutting, etc. The angels knew such great mysteries, but all where worthless ones. They taught such things to WOMEN and men that God never intended for them to be introduced. With these great technologies man has done such horrific doings. Even to this day we build and thrive on advancements that we learned from the angels. I have spent more time on the computer than I have done anything else. It was able to be invented through these teachings. Does that make it evil for me to use my computer? That's not the question I am interested in asking/answering. The question is how much distraction has tvs, computers, videogames, cars, theories, sciences, maths, astrologies, nuclear weapons, etc. taken away from the true intent God had for us creatures? So if man is to be judged, does man do the judging of the angels? So if all of these things are truly distractions to keep me away from God. How much time and effort must I spend to find him. Do I even have a chance? Is there even a God?

I once asked a wise man: Why must so many people from all over different parts of the globe create some form of God? It was designed in ther nature to do such! Was the answer I got. So must man seek God? Obviously not each individual, what about the rest. If I raise some test tube babies on Mars or in the middle of the Earth, with no contact with the rest of man/civilization, will they eventually create a God? How about a government? Is the need for a government just a byProduct/steppingStone of the need for a God?

To actually answer the original question. Yes, organized religion definitely is/canBe a form of mind control. The greedy will always exploit the ignorant. Sometimes I think that is why the earth spins on a crooked axis. Perhaps, that's my point. Why an organized religion? If one wants to know should one not seek God oneself? In the end who's going to get you in heaven? Is it all the others in your religion? Why a religion at all? Mind control???????? Or is religion just a, way off the track, form of beliefSharing? How many think Abraham was interested in the religions/beliefs/gods of others? Just maybe he was so disgusted with all the ignorants around him and sought out to seek a real God.

AAhhh, did all that just come off the tip of my fingers!!?
Excuse me for:
Still going! Nothing outlasts the jibberJabber/babelJabber! It keeps going, and going, and going...

BiteR 06-12-2009 09:54 PM

the virus of faith

Originally Posted by sai (Post 1905)
muaddib, you are totally right. I never accepted religion to conquer parts of my life although I accept that other people may believe in "god" and go to church and so on. To me, religion is just the most stupid thing ever invented by human beings and it is much more dangerous than any nuclear weapon.

100% agree with you :)


Originally Posted by mysticdrew (Post 3003)
IMHO religion is

1. Control
2. A way to give meaning to our meaningless lives.
3. control
4. Greed of the church to take our money.
5. control
6. Give a reason to why things are the way they are.
7. control.
8. Gives us hope that there is life after death.
9. control

100% agree with you :)

in my words any religion or secta is a VIRUS :D

nanoreactor 02-28-2010 11:10 PM

All of these criticisms are easy to make from the comfort of a world that was built by organized religion. One, rather, a few posts stated organized religion == control. This is undeniable. What I wonder, though, is weather or not those people think they need to be controlled. Did they spring from the womb already able to make choices that benefited the maximum number of people? Did they figure it out on their own? Or did people tell them along the way, "No that is wrong, do this instead". Our instinct is to be purely selfish, but we are 'controlled' into acting otherwise by society. A child who does not receive this control remains a selfish monster for his/her entire life. We have no choice but to be controlled. Our only real choice is what to be controlled by. Instinct? An addiction? or some rather hard to pin down sense of right and wrong? Where does that sense of right and wrong come from? It's easy (and quite plausible) to chalk it up to evolution. "We do what is best for the hive because we are programmed to do so". However, we stopped evolution 10,000 years ago when the first person decided it would be a good idea to heal the sick, feed the hungry, and shelter the poor. When the weak survive, evolution is severely impeded. Perhaps even rendered mute. What then stops me from killing people? (I am sure I am not the only one to have been sorely tempted!) I certainly don’t fear other humans. I could kill them just as easily. Fear of divine retribution has the lion’s share of responsibly for keeping people behaved over the last several thousand years. No amount of law enforcement ever really changes the crime rate. It's kind of hard to argue weather or not organized religion is right or wrong with a straight face because our society was created by organized religion. It smacks of children discussing weather or not their parents 'get it'. A fear of god will always create a society where the maximum number of people can find some measure of contentment. Without a higher power (or at least a belief in one) any sense of right and wrong is nothing but self-righteousness, and no one respects self-righteousness. So believe whatever you like, follow the morals you borrowed from the Ten Commandments, and sleep well knowing that you are being protected by those who do not care about you, but protect you anyways because they believe in something greater than this madness we call life. People who will fight for you so that you have nothing more pressing to worry about than "is religion right or wrong?".

I forgot to make my point! lol, my point is, its pointless to argue the existance of a god because its impossible to prove either way, Organized religion, however, is a very important part of human society that i don't feel we will ever stop needing. God or no god, we need religion. And if any of you ever experaince truely hard times (im not talking bill collecter phone calls!) youll see why.

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