Reverse Engineering Team Board

Reverse Engineering Team Board (
-   Reverse/Social Engineering (
-   -   Individualism (

kw 01-20-2004 08:57 PM

I should probably say why i'm talking about this. A while back, I commented about hating goths (if you don't know what that means, google it), and someone said I was narrowminded. I've been called a lot of things in my life, but narrowminded has not been one of them.
It made me think.. Am I really openminded, or do I (like everyone in the world) like to think I am, while slagging everyone that's different.
After all, I look like every other guy in the streets, nothing particularly different about me, if I look at myself objectively (or as objectively as one can, it is quite hard to be truly impartial)..

The thing is, I don't like people falling in line like sheep. It's the thing in this world I hate most of all. I've only recently realised this, after doing soulsearching trying to find out WHY I hate things like 'goths' or religion, or a lot of other things I really don't like. Let's start with an obvious one, religion. This has been discussed in another thread so I won't go into it too much. But I don't like people believing things just because they've always been told they were true. This is the case for most people that are religious. Only a few gain a new faith during their life.. If you don't believe people are spoonfed to believe in a certain religion by their parents, think about this: Isn't it peculiar that for some reason all the people that believe in Christianity live in western countries? And that all the people that happen to believe in the Islam live in arab countries? Its no coincidence, these beliefs are pushed on people from birth by their parents, and society as a whole. They believe them, because they've always believed them. They're afraid of the chaos caused by truly considering WHAT they are believing. Thus, they fall in line like sheep.
This type of reasoning, frankly, pisses me off. Now there's something like 'goths'. One might argue that it's people fighting against the mainstream, which I'm all for. The problem is though, they're being different by all being exactly the same type of different.
They choose not to conform to the standards of society, by conforming to the standards set in another society, like wearing black clothes. They feel like they are rebelling, but instead they're just a different breed of sheep. (Of course, it feels cooler to be a black sheep instead of a white sheep ;))

I think of myself as an individualist, but in doing so, I feel no desire to suddenly wear black clothes, just 'because all the other real individualists do!'. That just seems like a rediculous reasoning to me.
A lot of friends of mine are quite different too, though you wouldn't necessarily tell from the outside. There's no uniform to being an individual, just be your self. Most importantly, consider the things you do, while doing them. Don't blindly do things because you've "always done it this way".

I don't mean to come off sounding like I'm better than others, because frankly, I am not. I'm merely demonstrating a point, something I've thought about for some time now. I find myself automatically conforming a lot of the time.. Not always a bad thing, I might add. Being yourself is all good, but you don't want to be farting loudly at christmas dinner at your in-laws.. Or showing up naked on a party, because you didn't feel like wearing clothes just then. :D

I have no point to prove, or statement to make, I'm just sharing with you the thoughts I've had about this subject. Hope it was a good read for you, and made you think. By all means, share your thoughts on the subject as well. (Or any other subject, just make a new thread for those instead ;))

Kwazy Webbit

rous 01-21-2004 11:20 AM

While I feel religious discussions fall, perhaps, beyond the scope of this forum; I do feel the need to comment on your generalization of so-called, 'goths'.

Yes, I agree, the 'goth' subculture is more of an affectation than serious social splinter movement. I also agree that any person who believes they will attain individuality, simply through the enthusiastic adoption of a fad, is almost certainly making a mistake. However, keeping in mind that everyone will make an occasional mistake, and especially if one considers the lack of effect on you personally; don't you find your hatred of such people unnecessarily intolerant?

I just finished reading an interesting article, in which the author attempted to define, what she termed as, the 'coolness factor,' or what makes a person cool. She maintained that people others often describe as 'cool,' are actually those who 'do their own thing,' i.e., dress in their own fashion, watch the movies they want to watch, etc.--even though society might disagree at the time. In other words, it is individuals who define 'cool,' everybody else simply tags along.

I am not saying that individuals and society always have to think differently. Indeed, they will often believe in the same things; certain moral values such as 'killing is wrong' and 'having sex with children is wrong ' are examples. A true individual, however, would never let the amorphous blob, which we call society, affect their sense of integrity. In fact, a true individual would never let society, or for that matter, anyone else, influence them.

As a fellow individual, then, I guess I find myself surprised at your hatred.

I just want say I think you guys are doing a great job,

kw 01-21-2004 04:11 PM

I feel at this point I should probably say that hatred is a strong word for what I meant to say. It is more a lack of respect, that some other people I know do seem to have for people that suddenly decide to wear black.
I've seen people look in awe at some 'rebel' who wears exactly what all the millions of other 'goths' wear. I don't see anything special, and tell them so. When I wrote "I hate goths" it could probably have been more accurately described as "I hate the attitude of someone who wears a uniform to be different". Not the people themselves. Also, I respect the few that actually feel this look and lifestyle is their own. For them it is just ruined though, by the overwhelming amount of people following the hype, and are playing dressup to be part of the 'cool' group. I suppose it's the same with all fads though, I don't dislike any more than the other.. I've just never been one for changing my style for any other reason than feeling I want to do so myself.


PS. Hope this has cleared things up, it's rather hard to describe what I mean without getting lost in abstractions and psychological terms (of which I know practically none ;))

rous 02-01-2004 04:12 AM

:) It's an interesting discussion though, huh? Perhaps it's me, but I see the struggle of the individual against society as pervasive as anything. Has anyone read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand?


Biaaatch 02-14-2004 03:23 PM

Kw i know exactly what you mean. BUT,i have some things to add.
All you said about religion seems to be true. Somehow some different religions made their way to different locations and after some time they formed the so-known 5 (5?) world-religions.So isn't religion bullshit,cause born in America, i practice Christianity and won't have sex before marriage and if i was born in Middle Asia or any arab country i would slap the shit out of my wife and get sex whenever i want ;)
So why should i blindly follow a religion, a believe that's only related to the place where i've been born? I tell you why: Cause it's much easier to die with a believe than to die without.
As i currently work in a hospital, my experience is,that people with believe have it easier than nihilsts. And beside that. Do you really think that there's "NOTHING" out there?What was before the "Big-Bada-Boom"?Why only one earth and such a large universe?
But i'm getting a bit of topic....
My point is: If i lie dead ill in a bed, i'd rather believe in god and the paradise than to say: fuck you,i don't believe anything, i live,i die, i don't give a fuck :)

The second point. Your "i hate goths" statement is indeed "narrowminded".
Imho such general statements are ALWAYS bullshit. I hate fucking ravers, i hate fucking basketballplayers, i hate pasta-eaters. As there are always people,really believing in their specific way of life....and i'm sure there are indeed some "real" can't generalize it. This would be like "I hate all crackers/reversers, cause they're following the "i don'T wanna pay for my software/game/music"-trend.Of course ,there's always a BIG mass who will blindly follow different ways of life and therefore will ruin the real message behind those life styles,but that shouldn't fake your view :)

well, has been a long time for me to write in english,so this may sound bullshittyy and not witty :))

kw 02-14-2004 11:01 PM

As for the first part of your post, regarding religion.. There's a (rather large) thread about this on the board already ( ) so I guess I won't go into that here ;)

About the second, I already retracted my 'I hate goths statement'. You are right about it being a generalization, the reason I have that sentence in my head though is because I mentioned that in a conversation once, and that's what triggered my thoughts about individualism (which ended in this thread ;)). As a statement, it is false. I dont hate all goths, I just hate the fakes. But then, I said that before ;)

Kwazy Webbit

sna 02-15-2004 09:21 AM

generalization owns! all goths are stupid and smelly.

regards, sna

kw 02-17-2004 09:41 PM

* kw points at sna

Devine9 02-19-2004 09:49 PM

This is kinda off topic.. but i see goths around here walkin around with "hung" dolls hanging by their strings from their cuffs of their sleeves.. thats a new one to me..

I kinda wonder what their parents are thinking?

kw 02-21-2004 04:08 PM

I'll assume it's just another attempt to shock, basically. And I expect their parents are.. ;-)

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:16 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.